Score:3

A HRNG that is NIST 800-90 compliant is not suitable for use for OTP generation right?

lr flag

A HRNG that is NIST 800-90 compliant must use a DRBG in some way regardless of whether it adheres to a RBG1, RBG2 RBG3(XOR), or RBG3(RS) construction. This violates the requirement that the OTP is truly random (since there is a DRBG involved). Therefore, it is true that a NIST 800-90 compliant device cannot be used to generate a OTP since a computationally unbound adversary could break the OTP.

Is my understanding correct?

DannyNiu avatar
vu flag
From our [reading list](https://crypto.meta.stackexchange.com/a/1535/36960).
Score:3
my flag

Is my understanding correct?

Not quite.

For an RBG1 or an RBG2 (either flavor), it is correct (unless the RBG2 was reseeded extremely often, that is, effectively turning it into an RBG3(RS); see below for that case) - those are based in computational complexity assumptions and a computationally unbounded adversary could easily break it.

On the other hand, for RBG3(XOR), because the DRBG output is xor'ed in with the output of the entropy source, then if we assume that the entropy source has full entropy (that is, is itself informationally completely random), then the result is also full entropy. The xor'ing in of the data from the DRBG doesn't provide an in for our hypothetical attacker, as still any bit of the ultimate output is completely independent of all the rest of the bits of the ultimate output.

As for RBG3(RS), well, [Warning: significant hand-waving up ahead] I suspect our hypothetical attacker is likely to be able to distinguish a sufficiently long output from random; the idea is that the DRBG acts as $DRBG(S, RS) \rightarrow S', Output$, where $S$ is the initial state of the DRBG, $S'$ is the updated state, $RS$ is the reseeding data, and $Output$ is the block of output that the adversary can actually see. Now, this function is unlikely to generate $Output$ at exactly uniform probability distribution (and in addition, an unbounded adversary will get the updated probability distribution of $S'$, which is also not uniform); it appears likely to me that, for an unbounded adversary, the probability distributions would build up enough to be able to yield a distinguisher; however I am unable (being too lazy) to come up with any probable number of outputs needed.

Paul Uszak avatar
cn flag
It would be respectful to upvote the question if you've bothered answering it :-)
poncho avatar
my flag
@PaulUszak: what, you're calling me respectable? You must have me confused with someone else...
Paul Uszak avatar
cn flag
Of course I’m not; though you still haven’t up voted the OP’s question have you? Nasty man. I’m messing with you (as I hope you’ve inferred; apologies if not), but I’m highlighting the greater injustice common across the Stack Exchange estate. Injustice may be behind why you’re all on strike. There are many many downvoted/close voted questions that have received answers with multiple upvotes and gained lots of rep points. Whilst the mods have called me _“bat crazy”_ and mentally ill, I do not accept the notion of a “bad” question. Answer it, vote for it.
Score:0
cn flag

This is what we're all talking about:-

enter image description here

On the face of it, The (D)eterministic (R)andom (B)it (G)enerator is just there to mask a failure of the entropy source. If the pink blob is working, the DRBG (blue blob) is entirely irrelevant (unless manipulated by an adversary).

So yes, if pink (and green) is/are good, make your OTPs. But only if you ignore 800-90x and build a device yourself. See https://crypto.stackexchange.com/a/106942/23115 and https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title44-section3551&num=0&edition=prelim for the truth about US->global cryptography. I'm sorry that it's so boring, but cryptography is an art, yet control comes from political science.

Investigate and make your own judgement.

poncho avatar
my flag
So, would your answer to the question be "A 800-90 compliant HRBG (at least, a RBG3(XOR) one) would **not** be suitable"? If so, do you anything to back up that claim "apart from 'this is a NIST design and NIST is EVIL'
Paul Uszak avatar
cn flag
@poncho And now you’re messing with me :-) NIST isn’t _”EVIL”_ . It’s patriotic and an arm of the US government. At any cost. All I’ll do is point you to http://www.reallyreallyrandom.com/problems/conspiracy/nist/ **AGAIN** **AGAIN** **AGAIN** , [Has this forum been compromised by the NSA BULLRUN program?](https://crypto.meta.stackexchange.com/q/752/23115) **(AGAIN)** which has many many up votes and yet suspiciously you seem to be aggressively pro-NIST, supporting that question's premise.
Paul Uszak avatar
cn flag
@poncho Which brings us neatly right round to the stupidity of cryptographic monoculture and that the only point of forcing AES on the world suggests that it’s broken in real time. Prove that it isn't. And if it isn’t, then why did one of our mods/(NSA contractors?) glory in doing _”OTP is going to be HNQ that need to be stopped. Yeah there are lots to talk about that, however, that should be enough. I'll add some internal links, too.”_?
Paul Uszak avatar
cn flag
@poncho Why focus on eliminating one time pads? OTPs are impractical, stupid, and thus have never been used. [Are one time pads still used, perhaps for military or diplomatic purposes?](https://crypto.stackexchange.com/q/106796/23115) is probably just NSA disinformation. Or..?
Paul Uszak avatar
cn flag
@poncho You asked...
mangohost

Post an answer

Most people don’t grasp that asking a lot of questions unlocks learning and improves interpersonal bonding. In Alison’s studies, for example, though people could accurately recall how many questions had been asked in their conversations, they didn’t intuit the link between questions and liking. Across four studies, in which participants were engaged in conversations themselves or read transcripts of others’ conversations, people tended not to realize that question asking would influence—or had influenced—the level of amity between the conversationalists.